| @Aquamirror Everything you said is valid in your own head, and you haven't explained or justified any statements. You just said that it's shit because it's stupid and that's somehow a valid argument... You're the blind one because you judge before you investigate. I disagree with you because you don't even try, you just ignore everything investigated and then make baseless blanket statements. If someone disagrees with my analysis and can make a relatively competent analysis or point that actively contests what i've addressed, then great, bring on the constructive criticism. You're just flaming. Aquamirror said: Most of the world disagrees with you, just saying. What makes you an expert of literary analysis? I showed my worth with my assessment of the movie. What have you shown?Substance doesn't matter if the execution is crap, deal with it. ps: saying that my breakdown of the technical and philosophical aspects of the film is wrong because the characters are lame or whatever is called a "chewbacca defence". it's not relevant to the prior discussion. that is, unless you wish to start a new one about the characters etc, but it has nothing to do with the dreaming and the time shit. pps: i never addressed the romance and stuff in kimi no na wa, because that's not something you CAN sufficiently address, because it's entirely subjective. i also wasn't interested in studying the objectivity of the characters' relationship, because i didn't find it necessary. |
GenesisAriaAug 7, 2017 4:37 PM
❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
This thread rn: Damn now I wish I saw Kimi no na wa :'c |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
| @Clebardman I never said it was too deep for anyone. Just too deep if you don't try to understand it. I put effort in, most people didn't. Then watch it. |
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
GenesisAria said: Aquamirror said: Most of the world disagrees with you, just saying. What makes you an expert of literary analysis? I showed my worth with my assessment of the movie. What have you shown?Substance doesn't matter if the execution is crap, deal with it. Show me your PhD in literature or cinema studies, or btfo. Did you also get personal confirmation from Makoto Shinkai for your theory? Even people on reddit call you out on your bullshitness. Can't argue with flat earthers. Nice attention seeking with this advertisement thread, not gonna buy it. |
AquamirrorAug 7, 2017 4:43 PM
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| Your Name is pretty overrated and I still don't understand why it's number one. Sure, it's good, but I'm being generous when I give it a 8/10. The main characters lack chemistry and characterization. The female lead is decent, but the male is just a blank state, that has no discernible traits. Their interactions should have been deeper to establish a sense of connection between the two, but it never happens. The plot is also way too convoluted and barely makes sense. It over-complicates and uses conveniences for a simple love story, which is also forced and out of nowhere. Although the art is godly and the music is really good, I thought it was only good when coming out of the theater that day. Some of the symbolism and themes were well-executed, but didn't floor me. I tried to hold in my expectations for this movie, because the hype was enormous. However, it ultimately failed to meet my expectations. |
GenesisAria said: Upon my recent full assessment of Kimi no Na wa, and remembering my experience with his prior movies, i came to realize something... Makoto Shinkai's issue is not style over substance. Because of his overkill visual presentation, people tend to be caught up in the eye candy, and the seeming flatness of everything else in comparison, that they disregard what lies beneath the surface, because they're distracted. Makoto Shinkai's issue is publicly inaccessible esocericism; substance over comprehensibility. What is esotericism? It's basically the idea of something that is made so intellectually deep and subtle, that most people aren't even aware that there's something else there. I used to think of him as a mediocre director who was good at making things gorgeous, and clumsy at everything else, but that is no longer the case. His success with Kimi no Na wa was in that he was able to smooth out the gradient between the esoteric and the accessible. Where he failed before, he learned and succeeded in crafting something that people from all walks of live and all levels of intellect could appreciate fully, and consequently took the world by storm. Is this movie actually better than Ghibli films like the stats suggest? I'd say definitely. I don't think i've ever seen such a ingeniously crafted film in my entire life. It's not just emotionally captivating, it is ALSO a technical marvel! This investigation, pursuit of discovery and understanding, and consequential realization and skyrocketed both my appreciation for the film, and for it's criticized director. I will have to study his other films more closely to see if i can claw out the basis of them as well or not. Edit: Rather than this being a testament to what he has done, because he, like anyone else, is not perfect, i would instead say that this is a testament to what Makoto Shinkai is capable of. LOL I've yet to see Kimi no Na Wa as I await the BD release in America, but let me quote you because you're one of my oldest friends on this site. Have you seen Hoshi no Koe or Kotonoha no Niwa? Anyone calling that "Style over substance" is an unsophisticated, uneducated buffoon. Stop taking these morons seriously. You want to know why they hate Makoto Shinkai? Because he's popular. It's literally that simple and it's literally the elitist doctrine to hate that guy. He's not Satoshi Kon, Anno, Yuasa, or Abe, so elitists gonna elitist :\ |
 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ Let him be accursed O Lord, Amen! |
Aquamirror said: GenesisAria said: Most of the world disagrees with you, just saying. What makes you an expert of literary analysis? I showed my worth with my assessment of the movie. What have you shown? Show me your PhD in literature or cinema studies, or btfo. Did you also get personal confirmation from Makoto Shinkai for your theory? Even people on reddit call you out on your bullshitness. Can't argue with flat earthers. Nice attention seeking with this advertisement thread, not gonna buy it. This guy back to contributing his grand intelligence on the forums. @genesisaria don't even bother lol. I stopped dealing with this clown years ago haha |
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ Let him be accursed O Lord, Amen! |
Aquamirror said: You can't be educated on fiction study any more than you can be educated on visual arts. They can teach you techniques and styles, but NOBODY can tell you how to be a good artist or how to be good at studying art. So wanting a Ph.D makes no sense.Show me your PhD in literature or cinema studies, or btfo. Did you also get personal confirmation from Makoto Shinkai for your theory? @Jimmykudo3000  I've seen most of Shinkai's notable works, but it's been some time, and i never thought to open my head up for deeper undertones for most of them. There are some i haven't seen like his short thing about the cat. I don't agree with your statement of "uneducated" because i have zero confidence in the system which keeps churning out useless and arrogant academic idiots through a process of intellectual fascism comparable to a religion. SlowAnimeWatcher said: Complex or hyperrealistic characters is not even the intention of the movie; he even praises Koe no Katachi for it's brilliance in character portrayal. It's about the "red sting of fate" romantic fairy tale, but with a Cloud Atlas or Inception style plot. It appeals to the masses because of that fairy tale fated romance plot, but it also hes a layer of depth which the more intellectual watcher can appreciate as well, allowing it a very wide audience appeal.The main characters lack chemistry and characterization. The female lead is decent, but the male is just a blank state, that has no discernible traits. Their interactions should have been deeper to establish a sense of connection between the two, but it never happens. |
GenesisAriaAug 7, 2017 5:26 PM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
GenesisAria said: Complex or hyperrealistic characters is not even the intention of the movie; he even praises Koe no Katachi for it's brilliance in character portrayal. It's about the red-sting-of-fate romantic fairy tale, but with a Cloud Atlas or Inception style plot. I'm not hoping for complex characters. I just wanted the main characters to have a definitive personality: a few traits that I could easily give to them. You don't need characters to be very important in every piece of fiction, but a romantic tale such as Your Name needs characters to work well, so you can get swept up in their interactions and want them to be together. But yea, that's just what I think about the movie. Take it with a grain of salt. |
| @SlowAnimeWatcher Well Kimi no Na wa was designed to be like an amusement park ride. You hop on, and it does the rest. It's not about it needing to give you reasons to be invested or reasons to hop on in the first place, and i think it's an unfair demand that something need have particular reasons to pull you into it. You just hop on because it looks appealing or someone recommended it, then watch it without expecting anything, and you will be dazzled. It's a fairy tale, and like any fairy tale, they don't tend have particularly individual characters. It's about normal people, normal people (especially in japan) don't tend to have stand-out quirks, because you know that whole social conformism philosophy. Shinkai spent so much time on the substance and style, he didn't focus on the characters. He made the story and threw characters into it; whereas someone like Naoko Yamada makes the characters, and then builds a story around them. There is nothing wrong with that. The characters are simple, but so are many real humans. Complaining about it is more just finding reasons to dislike something because you have a preconception of how it should be, instead of just appreciating it for what it is. The best way to approach any fiction, is to drop off all your baggage at the door, and come in expecting nothing. If you never expect anything or assume anything nor drag your baggage of preconceived ideas of things into it, you will always enjoy it more. In short: don't compare. Each work is it's own universe and should be treated as such. |
GenesisAriaAug 7, 2017 5:33 PM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
| @GenesisAria Well yea, I could just be an irrational hater, who wants to be a hipster (WOW ITS SO POPULAR I MUST HATE). If you treat Your Name with its intended focus that you mentioned, I'm sure it would be a lot more enjoyable. I prefer Koe no Katachi, but that's just my taste. One of these days, when the BDs are released, maybe, I'll rewatch Your Name with a new mindset. |
Jimmykudo3000 said: LOL I've yet to see Kimi no Na Wa as I await the BD release in America, but let me quote you because you're one of my oldest friends on this site. Have you seen Hoshi no Koe or Kotonoha no Niwa? Anyone calling that "Style over substance" is an unsophisticated, uneducated buffoon. Stop taking these morons seriously. You want to know why they hate Makoto Shinkai? Because he's popular. It's literally that simple and it's literally the elitist doctrine to hate that guy. He's not Satoshi Kon, Anno, Yuasa, or Abe, so elitists gonna elitist : You know, when people say "style over substance" it doesn't necessarily mean it completely lacks substance, just that one is clearly more of a priority than the other. There isn't even anything especially wrong with style over substance works by default. |
KruszerAug 7, 2017 6:06 PM
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
Kruszer said: Jimmykudo3000 said: LOL I've yet to see Kimi no Na Wa as I await the BD release in America, but let me quote you because you're one of my oldest friends on this site. Have you seen Hoshi no Koe or Kotonoha no Niwa? Anyone calling that "Style over substance" is an unsophisticated, uneducated buffoon. Stop taking these morons seriously. You want to know why they hate Makoto Shinkai? Because he's popular. It's literally that simple and it's literally the elitist doctrine to hate that guy. He's not Satoshi Kon, Anno, Yuasa, or Abe, so elitists gonna elitist : You know, when people say "style over substance" it doesn't necessarily mean it completely lacks substance, just that one is clearly more of a priority than the other. There isn't even anything especially wrong with style over substance works by default. In that case I would be willing to accept the former part of your argument - that claiming style over substance doesn't inherently mean the show lacks substance, unfortunately a lot of the times when I see this argument made it seems to imply that very notion. I would agree Makoto Shinkai's works have a plethora of style, Kotonha no Niwa has some of the most beautiful artistic displays you will ever see in any anime. I'm hoping Kimi no na Wa can match or exceed that. But I vehemently reject the notion that they're devoid of substance -if that is what people (as I have seen before) are implying. |
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ Let him be accursed O Lord, Amen! |
| How can you get emotional without deep characterization, good story? How just by art, special effect, sound alone? Doesn't that illusion insult your EQ? I personally get emotional mostly by well-written character relationship, not just art/sound, that's why I really love anime in the first place Shallow story and pacing, terrible characterization, great art, very emotional, people can relate with, people can get into story by just emotion without cognitive thinking? That sounds like hollywood to me. (Handdrawn Art is more emotional than Photography though :D) IMO, anime that deserve 10/10 and #1 should have BOTH great art and story, **not just one**. There are a lot of anime with BOTH, yet they're not given 10/10 |
Jimmykudo3000 said: Many other creators have Tins and tons of style. A lot of Shinkai's works have photographic detail, but it's not excessively stylized. So much of the scenes in his works look almost identical to photographs of the same scenes, to the point where if you're only given a second to look you'd have no idea which is which. I'm not sure i'd even call that style. He's just made a lot of stuff that visually enhances reality, and the telling rather relaxed, but often deep stories with a simple presentation.I would agree Makoto Shinkai's works have a plethora of style, Kotonha no Niwa has some of the most beautiful artistic displays you will ever see in any anime. I'm hoping Kimi no na Wa can match or exceed that. But I vehemently reject the notion that they're devoid of substance -if that is what people (as I have seen before) are implying. _LapisLazuli said: I'll correct you on something here. You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between empathy and sympathy. Makoto Shinkai IS NOT an empathic creator, he does not and never has created works that have empathic depth. He is a sympathic creator, who focuses on emotional sympathy gained from comprehension of circumstance, personal desires, or experiences. If you want empathic directorship, then you should be watching more KyoAni, because that's Naoko Yamada's style, portraying characters via all their little details and movements. That is also why i say if they worked together on a project, they'd create something godlike.How can you get emotional without deep characterization, good story? How just by art, special effect, sound alone? I personally get emotional mostly by well-written character relationship, not just art/sound, that's why I really love anime in the first place Shallow story and pacing, terrible characterization, great art, very emotional, people can relate with, people can get into story by just emotion without cognitive thinking? That sounds like hollywood to me. _LapisLazuli said: No. Having your EQ insulted means you have an egocentric view of yourself. There's plenty of stupid dogshit anime that i like regardless of knowing they're bad, this is not one of them. I recommend taking a more passive and neutral approach to things.Doesn't that illusion insult your EQ? _LapisLazuli said: Like Clannad or Koe no Katachi?IMO, anime that deserve 10/10 and #1 should have BOTH great art and story, **not just one**. There are a lot of anime with BOTH, yet they're not given 10/10 I'm gonna make a personal attack here: you 10'd Steins;Gate, but that contradicts what you just said, because that show's sakuga(art&animation) lacks, and all of it's characters besides Okabe are pretty flat. Just trying to get a sense of what you're saying, and if it actually holds up, or if you're just using it as a catchphrase to support your opinion. Kimi no Na wa has amazing art, and amazing story. It does not have deep and empathizable characters. |
GenesisAriaAug 7, 2017 6:51 PM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
Jimmykudo3000 said: Kruszer said: You know, when people say "style over substance" it doesn't necessarily mean it completely lacks substance, just that one is clearly more of a priority than the other. There isn't even anything especially wrong with style over substance works by default. In that case I would be willing to accept the former part of your argument - that claiming style over substance doesn't inherently mean the show lacks substance, unfortunately a lot of the times when I see this argument made it seems to imply that very notion. I would agree Makoto Shinkai's works have a plethora of style, Kotonha no Niwa has some of the most beautiful artistic displays you will ever see in any anime. I'm hoping Kimi no na Wa can match or exceed that. But I vehemently reject the notion that they're devoid of substance -if that is what people (as I have seen before) are implying. There is substance there but I think it isn't executed well enough to my satisfaction. (Mostly because I think his movies are too open-ended and lack closure and I usually don't enjoy these types of works.) |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97" |
| I should make a blanket statement which may seem controversial to some, but if you think about it, it makes sense: Makoto Shinkai doesn't make anime. FFFFFFFWHAT!? Yes, he makes animation, but he doesn't make "anime". His films should be treated the way you would something filmed in live action. He turns reality into 2D animation, and that is his visual and character style. If you wanna know who i think is truly style over substance, and relies on both visual stylization and appeal to fantastic elements, it's Hayao Miyazaki. Ghibli movies may be considered classic, but i only see limited value in them, and Miyazaki is WAY too up his own ass. Claiming his works as superior, claiming not to be an otaku, when he's absolutely an airplane and visual arts otaku. I appreciate Shinkai's humbleness depicted in his works. |
GenesisAriaAug 7, 2017 7:51 PM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
GenesisAria said: Jimmykudo3000 said: Many other creators have Tins and tons of style. A lot of Shinkai's works have photographic detail, but it's not excessively stylized. So much of the scenes in his works look almost identical to photographs of the same scenes, to the point where if you're only given a second to look you'd have no idea which is which. I'm not sure i'd even call that style. He's just made a lot of stuff that visually enhances reality, and the telling rather relaxed, but often deep stories with a simple presentation.I would agree Makoto Shinkai's works have a plethora of style, Kotonha no Niwa has some of the most beautiful artistic displays you will ever see in any anime. I'm hoping Kimi no na Wa can match or exceed that. But I vehemently reject the notion that they're devoid of substance -if that is what people (as I have seen before) are implying. _LapisLazuli said: I'll correct you on something here. You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between empathy and sympathy. Makoto Shinkai IS NOT an empathic creator, he does not and never has created works that have empathic depth. He is a sympathic creator, who focuses on emotional sympathy gained from comprehension of circumstance, personal desires, or experiences. If you want empathic directorship, then you should be watching more KyoAni, because that's Naoko Yamada's style, portraying characters via all their little details and movements. That is also why i say if they worked together on a project, they'd create something godlike.How can you get emotional without deep characterization, good story? How just by art, special effect, sound alone? I personally get emotional mostly by well-written character relationship, not just art/sound, that's why I really love anime in the first place Shallow story and pacing, terrible characterization, great art, very emotional, people can relate with, people can get into story by just emotion without cognitive thinking? That sounds like hollywood to me. _LapisLazuli said: No. Having your EQ insulted means you have an egocentric view of yourself. There's plenty of stupid dogshit anime that i like regardless of knowing they're bad, this is not one of them. I recommend taking a more passive and neutral approach to things.Doesn't that illusion insult your EQ? _LapisLazuli said: Like Clannad or Koe no Katachi?IMO, anime that deserve 10/10 and #1 should have BOTH great art and story, **not just one**. There are a lot of anime with BOTH, yet they're not given 10/10 I'm gonna make a personal attack here: you 10'd Steins;Gate, but that contradicts what you just said, because that show's sakuga(art&animation) lacks, and all of it's characters besides Okabe are pretty flat. Just trying to get a sense of what you're saying, and if it actually holds up, or if you're just using it as a catchphrase to support your opinion. Kimi no Na wa has amazing art, and amazing story. It does not have deep and empathizable characters. Stein Gate has very good art, both animation, colouring, lighting was very well done that it portrays the story very well. Stein Gate side characters aren't too deep, but they're not some random characters, they have character relation, background, individuality, they have "what influence them to do this/that or say or think about this/that". and most importantly, they have "what influence them to decide to take action". They are well written. Great Art is not about surrealism, great art is how much the art influence your feeling/emotion. If I scored anime art based purely on realism, that's would make me love Shinkai more than this. If you love reallism style, that's fine, but I don't care much about reallism. Just want you to know the reason why I rate it 10; This is my *honest* opinion and how I rate anime's art. Feel free to disagree about 10'd SteinGate. About the EQ insulting thing: I meant I get emotional because of the story(mostly), characterization(mostly), combined with art. Not because of just outer appearance. Sorry, i must have phrased it wrong. |
_LapisLazuliAug 8, 2017 1:53 AM
_LapisLazuli said: No, most of them were pretty flat... especially tutturu and the nekomaid girl that i forget the name right now. Singular stand-ut traits doesn't make them much different than stock characters.but they're not some random characters, they have character relation, background, individuality, they have "what influence them to do this/that or say or think about this/that". and most importantly, they have "what influence them to decide to take action". They are well written. _LapisLazuli said: I wasn't talking about realism. See Makoto Shinkai is like a scenery photographer, he captures the frame and the scenery and bolsters it to a level of enhanced fantasy despite just being photogenic imagery, he's not cut out for people. I wasn't really talking about liking realism, i'm just saying it's not a flaw. I disagree with the surrealism though, that's a trend that started many hundreds of years ago which is a particular subdivision of artistic interests. I'd rather see a beautifully drawn yet super clear and believable fantasy landscape (even if it's got floating islands and crap), than something like Shaft, where you can barely tell where anyone even is, because the scenery is inconsistent and doing weird trippy shit.Great Art is not about surrealism, great art is how much the art influence your feeling/emotion. If I scored anime art based purely on realism, that's would make me love Shinkai more than this. If you love reallism style, that's fine, but I don't care much about reallism. But yeah, a truly talented photographer can take a photo of something ordinary, even from an ordinary angle, and make it seem like a dream-like amazing fantasy world, even though it's just a picture of something real and mundane. It's difficult to place your finger on what it is that makes it seem to glow magically, but that's the art, and why taking pictures is also an art. |
GenesisAriaAug 8, 2017 2:00 AM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
| Shinkai combines real photos and drawings, of course the art would look realistic duh. Art isn't enough when your story and characters and terrible though. You could argue even the most garbage anime out there to be deep and good because that's author's style, but that doesn't mean the overall quality is good however hard he tried. If the only way to find substance is by disregarding core facts and ideas of the movie, then there's something wrong. It's a dream, so every convininent information is ignored because the author said so doesn't hold up, you can tell your ideas without making your plot further unrealistically convoluted. I'm pretty sure Shinkai really intended that the meteor impact happened, otherwise a huge part of the story is just useless filler. GenesisAria said: _LapisLazuli said: No, most of them were pretty flat... especially tutturu and the nekomaid girl that i forget the name right now. Singular stand-ut traits doesn't make them much different than stock characters.but they're not some random characters, they have character relation, background, individuality, they have "what influence them to do this/that or say or think about this/that". and most importantly, they have "what influence them to decide to take action". They are well written. Tutturu definitely isn't flat if you actually think about who she is and why is she so important to Okabe. |
AquamirrorAug 8, 2017 2:12 AM
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| The movie's not the special, it has a boring and predictable story, uninteresting characters and a weak climax. It's still far from the worst movie I've seen, but it's a pretty basic movie, far from a masterpiece. I still found it to be his best movie but that's not saying much when his movies aren't that great to begin with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
#dicksoutforhughmungus |
GenesisAria said: _LapisLazuli said: No, most of them were pretty flat... especially tutturu and the nekomaid girl that i forget the name right now. Singular stand-ut traits doesn't make them much different than stock characters.but they're not some random characters, they have character relation, background, individuality, they have "what influence them to do this/that or say or think about this/that". and most importantly, they have "what influence them to decide to take action". They are well written. _LapisLazuli said: I wasn't talking about realism. See Makoto Shinkai is like a scenery photographer, he captures the frame and the scenery and bolsters it to a level of enhanced fantasy despite just being photogenic imagery, he's not cut out for people. I wasn't really talking about liking realism, i'm just saying it's not a flaw. I disagree with the surrealism though, that's a trend that started many hundreds of years ago which is a particular subdivision of artistic interests. I'd rather see a beautifully drawn yet super clear and believable fantasy landscape (even if it's got floating islands and crap), than something like Shaft, where you can barely tell where anyone even is, because the scenery is inconsistent and doing weird trippy shit.Great Art is not about surrealism, great art is how much the art influence your feeling/emotion. If I scored anime art based purely on realism, that's would make me love Shinkai more than this. If you love reallism style, that's fine, but I don't care much about reallism. But yeah, a truly talented photographer can take a photo of something ordinary, even from an ordinary angle, and make it seem like a dream-like amazing fantasy world, even though it's just a picture of something real and mundane. It's difficult to place your finger on what it is that makes it seem to glow magically, but that's the art, and why taking pictures is also an art. I am not saying it's a flaw either. it's a positive one. I love art that influence my feeling whatever style it is. But that's not enough to let me rate it higher. Let alone become #1 on MAL. (The reason why I assume you like reallism because you said you didn't like Stein;Gate art, sorry if I missed that) Mayuri - She lost her parents, she was motivated by Okabe. She was soothing, kindhearted toward Okabe. But that's also why Okabe was overprotective of her. Okabe was recultant to tell her what's going on, but she knew and kept on hiding her feeling. This kind of relationship alone impact so much on each action Okabe took in the story. AND MOST importantly, she is the reason why the lab exists. Ferris - Her decision about her dad was really well-written. She chose to escape from her dream and lives on the reality. Regret about past makes her a type of girl that is energetic, high-spirited, moe moe nekomimi maid on the outside. But inside, she also can put up a serious face even behind her smile face when it comes to the last decision. It may sound unreallistic, but it's what I love about anime. If good characterisation was based on realism, not an exaggerated fiction, I would not love anime as much as I do. How I think Kimi no Na wa's story and characterisation is bad: - Why would Taki took so much effort (he even draws the whole city) in finding where she is, he could've just walked to somewhere in the city where there's some "road sign" when in Mitsuha's body and searched on Google when he's back. This doesn't make sense but I understand the movie was trying to show "how he struggle to find his love" but that's . . . too brain-death. - How did Mitsuha even know Taki's plan and do it so perfectly? did they just come up with the exactly same idea? or they did some telepathy on the mountain? - Taki and Mitsuha's personalities? I really feel no individuality in them or how would they act or talk about something, decide to do something, love something/one, decide to do something, etc. It's just not interesting. Please don't get me wrong. I am not an elitist, I do not hate the anime I gave low score or love the high scored on my list. I used to rate anime subjectively, now it's kinda mixed both subjectively and objectively. Because I reallised that I love all anime even it's "bad", but my feeling toward it can't be based by number. |
_LapisLazuliAug 8, 2017 3:35 AM
| Excuse me? Kimi no na Wa is even more of a 'style over substance' than his previous works. The story barely holds together, you have to completely turn your brain off for it to make sense. It's carried by the visuals, as always. Not like it's objectively a bad thing, though. I'm not a fan of his anime, it's not my thing, but I guess he does have talent for making things so flashy and pretty. |
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Aquamirror said: That goes pretty much for every character ever, if you think long enough about any character you'll eventually find out why they are so well written.GenesisAria said: No, most of them were pretty flat... especially tutturu and the nekomaid girl that i forget the name right now. Singular stand-ut traits doesn't make them much different than stock characters. Tutturu definitely isn't flat if you actually think about who she is and why is she so important to Okabe. |
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zal said: Aquamirror said: That goes pretty much for every character ever, if you think long enough about any character you'll eventually find out why they are so well written.Tutturu definitely isn't flat if you actually think about who she is and why is she so important to Okabe. The fact the story doesn't shovel facts in your face and keeps their relation lower doesn't mean it's not there. Mayuri is a core part of the story and a big reason why the lab exists and why Okabe and she act like that. |
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Aquamirror said: Just like pretty much every character ever, just because you don't see it for them doesn't mean it's not there.zal said: That goes pretty much for every character ever, if you think long enough about any character you'll eventually find out why they are so well written. The fact the story doesn't shovel facts in your face and keeps their relation lower doesn't mean it's not there. Mayuri is a core part of the story and a big reason why the lab exists and why Okabe and she act like that. |
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zal said: Aquamirror said: Just like pretty much every character ever, just because you don't see it for them doesn't mean it's not there.The fact the story doesn't shovel facts in your face and keeps their relation lower doesn't mean it's not there. Mayuri is a core part of the story and a big reason why the lab exists and why Okabe and she act like that. What the fuck are you trying to prove here? |
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Imaishi said: On the contrary, it doesn't make sense until you study it extremely intuitively. I recommend reading my analysis and assessment of it, i discovered the answers to all the assumed issued with it, unless you can find more.Excuse me? Kimi no na Wa is even more of a 'style over substance' than his previous works. The story barely holds together, you have to completely turn your brain off for it to make sense. It's carried by the visuals, as always. @Aquamirror @zal A character having contextual importance doesn't improve their flatness of personality. _LapisLazuli said: If it was up to me, anime like Clannad and Shinsekai yori would be in the top 5, because of the profound philosophical depth they have. But it's not up to me, or you.I am not saying it's a flaw either. it's a positive one. But not enough to let me rate it higher. Let alone become #1 on MAL. _LapisLazuli said: Character backgrounds increase sympathy, it does't make their personalities less 1-dimensional. Plot significance doesn't make them better either. The characters in Kimi no Na wa are extremely important to the plot,especially the grandma, but that doesn't mean they have any additional character details in their personalities....Mayuri & Ferris... _LapisLazuli said: Nono, din't get me wrong, that's why i love anime too, but like i mentioned, Shinkai doesn't necessarily make "anime". Hence why it can appeal to normies.It may sound unreallistic, but it's what I love about anime. If good characterisation was based on realism, not an exaggerated fiction, I would not love anime as much as I do. _LapisLazuli said: That's how i have to rate. I wish there was a subjective rating and an objective rating, 2 separate values for every work... But the moderators are diehard subjectivists.Please don't get me wrong. I am not an elitist, I do not hate the anime I gave low score or love the high scored on my list. I used to rate anime subjectively, now it's kinda mixed both subjectively and objectively. Because I reallised that I love all anime even it's "bad", but my feeling toward it can't be based by number. ------------------------------------------ Aquamirror said: You know what's hilariously ironic about this statement? It makes you a complete hypocrite, because that's exactly what you're failing to comprehend with Kimi no Na wa.The fact the story doesn't shovel facts in your face and keeps their relation lower doesn't mean it's not there. |
GenesisAriaAug 8, 2017 3:38 AM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
GenesisAria said: Nono, din't get me wrong, that's why i love anime too, but like i mentioned, Shinkai doesn't necessarily make "anime". Hence why it can appeal to normies. From what I've experienced, normies don't think highly of it (they think normally of it). 3 of my normy friends went to the cinema and try their first anime as they wonder why I love anime so much, and then . . . they laughed "So this is #1 anime? it's not that good, it's just another normal movie lol, anime must suck!" Everyone else on the sidewalk exit: "Another good movies, nothing special!", "Anime are made for kids anyway" ***I didn't give a bias score based on this experience, I love anime so much that I wouldn't dare to disgrace myself over this. My list is all my honest opinion*** GenesisAria said: If it was up to me, anime like Clannad and Shinsekai yori would be in the top 5, because of the profound philosophical depth they have. But it's not up to me, or you. Well, you're right. But it kinda makes me sad inside just a little :( |
_LapisLazuliAug 8, 2017 4:09 AM
| Okay, I admit, that was better than I expected. I was entertained. The story is so convenient, though. 7/10. |
EzekielAug 8, 2017 4:49 AM
| @_LapisLazuli I'd have to be frank and say that might be more a measure of their intelligence ._. @Ezekiel Most stories are convenient. You wouldn't tell a story of some random thing . . . Like if an event happens in real life, a story is made of it BECAUSE it's exceptional or improbable circumstances. |
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
| Usually, not like Your Name. It feels contrived. |
GenesisAria said: Aquamirror said: You know what's hilariously ironic about this statement? It makes you a complete hypocrite, because that's exactly what you're failing to comprehend with Kimi no Na wa.The fact the story doesn't shovel facts in your face and keeps their relation lower doesn't mean it's not there. Out of context. Kimi no Na wa as a romance story fails to make good romantic characters. You can make a story beliavable without riddling it with conviniences and characters acting stupid. This is just plain bad forced writing. The movie wants you to ignore every moment of their life outside of what is presented and excuses that with "it's a dream so they forgot it". And they forget it inconsistently at the exact needed moment to make the cheap drama value. Your fan theory isn't any different than any other half-based opinion, don't force it too much okay. And don't expect a 3000 word response because literally nobody gives a flying fuck about it. |
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Aquamirror said: GenesisAria said: You know what's hilariously ironic about this statement? It makes you a complete hypocrite, because that's exactly what you're failing to comprehend with Kimi no Na wa. Out of context. Kimi no Na wa as a romance story fails to make good romantic characters. You can make a story beliavable without riddling it with conviniences and characters acting stupid. This is just plain bad forced writing. The movie wants you to ignore every moment of their life outside of what is presented and excuses that with "it's a dream so they forgot it". And they forget it inconsistently at the exact needed moment to make the cheap drama value. Your fan theory isn't any different than any other half-based opinion, don't force it too much okay. And don't expect a 3000 word response because literally nobody gives a flying fuck about it. That's not what bad writing is. That's a particular style of "purpose built". If you don't like it, that's fine, that doesn't make it bad. I can appreciate the tact of being able to make every element of the story relevant without fucking around with other non-relevant crap. I can ALSO appreciate stuff that can build a world that clearly stretches beyond the story with non relevant things to give it life, and i can ALSO appreciate characters that stretch beyond the story to give them depth. But demanding them or face the spiked club of hate, is an aggressive opinion bias, and elitism. I'll @Ezekiel for that statement as well :) What i meant by "Most stories are convenient. You wouldn't tell a story of some random thing . . . Like if an event happens in real life, a story is made of it BECAUSE it's exceptional or improbable circumstances." is that you should try thinking of the story having been written BECAUSE of the comet event, rather than the comet being written for the sake of the story, see what i'm saying? If you know anything of what it's like to be a true creator of fiction, you know that half the time you're not even writing your story, you're discovering it as it unfolds itself. |
GenesisAriaAug 8, 2017 5:36 AM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
R2M2 said: @GenesisAria I read through your analysis of the intricacies of Kimi no Na wa and find your dream theories plausible.But I do believe in the alternate timeline theory, Put you stuff in spoilers cuz this isn't the spoiler thread. |
GenesisAriaAug 8, 2017 3:40 PM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
| He rips off other people: http://goboiano.com/people-arent-believing-that-your-name-copied-these-anime/ |
| HACKs! 🤢🤮 |
mehmehperson said: He rips off other people: http://goboiano.com/people-arent-believing-that-your-name-copied-these-anime/ Someone just linked me that elsewhere... It's bullshit. Sure he did a hat-tip to Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo with the trip and fall thing... but the rest are terrible accusations, as they're just based on similar locations. They went to the same town to do their backdrops for scenes. It's baseless foolish nonsense. |
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
| I'm gonna be honest, I'm too lazy to read your assessment lol. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you made valid points in it. With that said, I do think it was a good movie. I agree, he is capable of great things. I used to think he was overrated, but some of it is well-deserved praise. And since we're all throwing our opinions out in the open, I might as well say that I much preferred KyoAni's The Shape of Voice to Your Name. ^ This analysis of the movie made me cry. |
  Crying doesn't mean you're weak. Enduring doesn't mean you're strong. |
| @AniAmber I understood Koe no Katachi 100% on the first watch. Before i realized that Kimi no Na wa actually had ZERO flaws aside from not having KyoAni characters, i used to think that despite enjoying Kimi no Na wa more, because withoutkunderstanding the depth of Kimi no Na wa's plot, Koe no Katachi seems straight up a better story. Once i realized what i was missing, i shifted my pseudo-objective viewpoint to Kimi no Na wa being better. Koe no Katachi's bullying, depression, redemption, friendship, and primarily reconciliation plot is very very good... My largest complaint is that i'd have rathered it be about Shouko, her difficulties, her reconciliation, and her romance, from her perspective. I understand how she feels pretty well, and i was sad that i didn't get to see much of it, because it was so focused on Shouya. That said, the movie relied heavily on abstract and poetic symbolism, which i'm generally not a huge fan of. Like Naoko Yamada is more than capable of showing that whole ignoring faces thing without the need for X's for example, but oh well, it was a style choice. |
GenesisAriaAug 9, 2017 9:56 PM
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
| style over substance or substance over style is false dichotomy... style can be substance, and substance can be style... and makoto devinitely style is the substance since his series rely on visual interpretation to understanding the story he try to confess... kimi no nawa is not that blatant, but it very obvious in kotonoha no niwa... i think makoto purposefully reducing it to appealing more mass, which is definitely works... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma That's part of the point. The whole argument is a false premise to begin with. @Wasshio No there definitely is a quasi-objective view, and macroscopic subjective view, each which differ greatly from the egocentric subjective view, which is the enshrining of the holy opinion. Egocentric subjectivists think only of themselves and herald their opinion assomehow more valuable. Macroscopic subjectivists can understand their opinions, the opinions of others, and the general appreciability of things, and draw an understanding from that. Quasi-objective view is from literary analysis, mechanics analysis, production analysis, sakuga assessment, assessment of appeal, philosophical assessment. Saying it's only opinions is degrading the wonder of art down to this thing that only exists within the meager mind of the individual. If only opinions existed, then conversation would be utterly pointless an fruitless, because nothing would be seen beyond that, and it would just be arguments between enemies or alliances of like-minds, like cliques in grade school. People are capable of better than that, wider comprehension, and mutual understanding. |
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
GenesisAria said: didn't read the whole 3 page of thread lOl... i tough you are talking that kimi no nawa visual representation is overdone... when tBH, i found it he already tooned it down a lot... at least compare to kotonoha no niwa....@Kuma That's part of the point. The whole argument is a false premise to begin with. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Wasshio said: GenesisAria said: I think I needed to clarify a bit.@Kuma That's part of the point. The whole argument is a false premise to begin with. @Wasshio No there definitely is a quasi-objective view, and macroscopic subjective view, each which differ greatly from the egocentric subjective view, which is the enshrining of the holy opinion. Egocentric subjectivists think only of themselves and herald their opinion assomehow more valuable. Macroscopic subjectivists can understand their opinions, the opinions of others, and the general appreciability of things, and draw an understanding from that. Quasi-objective view is from literary analysis, mechanics analysis, production analysis, sakuga assessment, assessment of appeal, philosophical assessment. Saying it's only opinions is degrading the wonder of art down to this thing that only exists within the meager mind of the individual. If only opinions existed, then conversation would be utterly pointless an fruitless, because nothing would be seen beyond that, and it would just be arguments between enemies or alliances of like-minds, like cliques in grade school. People are capable of better than that, wider comprehension, and mutual understanding. I mean I just don't believe anything when it comes to those terms when it comes to anime format because, it's really at the end someone's thought in the end, so they're using criticism to empathize or give the argument or thought some ground to say the least. But that's just me because I generally don't really believe those terms can go well and in the end both sides belong in the same spectrum or stance when it comes to these things, at least the word itself. Just different ideals and different thought processes. And yet anime reviews can affect the scores of anime profoundly . . . Digibro's analytical diatribe about SAO literally started the anti-SAO riot, and knocked it's score down by a LOT. People are affected by the knowledge and understanding, just as my review of Kimi no Na wa seems to have raised some peoples' scores of it as well. As someone who heavily studies fiction and is constructing a very dense fiction myself, i can say that literary knowledge is EXTREMELY important, you need to know tropes, and how to use them, and how to present emotional moments the way you want them too and so on. What people see at the finished product is the tip of a gigantic iceberg that had to be carved and crafted with a lot of careful consideration. Opinions are not paramount. Each human is not 100% unique, because we're all still human with the same fundamental brain structure. Although the triggers may be different, happiness is happiness, and sadness is sadness, in every human, even the mentally damaged ones. Understanding the patterns, is why things can be made so well, as opposed to just throwing thigns at the wall to see what sticks, they use discovery, and reasoning, and intuition, and deeper understanding to craft things that dazzle the minds of the rest of us. You DO know that in Hollywood, music is literally manufactured based on psychological studies TO PURPOSELY appeal to the most people? Not saying this it what Makoto Shinkai did, but it is a piece of proof that there is a common ground between people. |
| ❀桜舞う空〜 Cute is Power. 🔗CosmoGenesis Project “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” “A truth seeker has no patience for BS.” I seek only to improve myself and others. |
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